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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 4:45:23 PM
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Very well stated Chain, and correct. But I like to spell symantics with a "y". Got a problem with that? LOL
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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ChainLightning
New Member
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 6:20:19 PM
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LOL Jade.
I don't know if you're referring to where I said *THAT, by the way, is semantics* or not.
If so, I was actually referring to the *different view: better/worse or just different* observation, ie; A different view is just that, different.
If not: well, of course I don't have an issue with how YOU spell semantics. It's simply *different*. 
As well as incorrect... but we won't go there. I mean it's entirely possible that the dictionary is incorrect. *Fallable* references, you know?
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Edited by - ChainLightning on November 01 2006 6:22:04 PM |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
 Posted - November 01 2006 : 6:34:41 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by ChainLightning
LOL Jade.
I don't know if you're referring to where I said *THAT, by the way, is semantics* or not.
I actually wasn't quite sure. LOL
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If so, I was actually referring to the *different view: better/worse or just different* observation, ie; A different view is just that, different.
Totally agree
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If not: well, of course I don't have an issue with how YOU spell semantics. It's simply *different*.
That be me....different. Also a terrible speller. I wish MG would put a spell checker on here. HINT HINT
[quote]As well as incorrect... but we won't go there. I mean it's entirely possible that the dictionary is incorrect. *Fallable* references, you know?
It was made by man, so it is very likely it is incorrect no matter how we write it. Wait til all the ebonics get incorporated into the Dictionary, then it will be completely useless.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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kt_eats_paper
Starting Member
Zimbabwe
1 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 7:16:08 PM
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Because I think one of my purposes in life is to stir things up a bit...
I feel as though I'm coming into this topic a bit late in the game, but we'll see what happens. I'm a liberal, and I think that I'm even more to the left than some of my "very liberal" friends. While I don't think I could *personally* ever have an abortion, I think it should be an option to women. It's my body, and while the fetus *may* be considered an individual life form, it's in my body. No one should be allowed to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. If I choose to rid myself of something I can't or don't want to physically go through, that's my choice to live with. But the point is, I think it should be a choice. What I *don't* agree with, though, is women who have had 3, 4, 5, or more abortions - read: women who use abortions as birth control. Also, I'm not going to comment about the law in California because I haven't had time to consider it, and truth be told, I'm torn. A 13 year old is sort of young, but I believe a 17 year old is capable of making her own decisions; she's close enough to being an "adult" anyway.
I'm also interested to know if those who think that abortion is wrong think that emergency contraceptions should be illegal. Technically, if there is a fertilized egg about to be planted and it is destroyed by the medication, it's an abortion. Should those be banned as well?
Now, I guess, is the real reason I'm posting. Jade said something that made me think, and since I'm not sure how to use the quote box, I'm just going to copy/paste it:
"And for some reason, these same misguided folks also think parents are incapable of raising their children so they help the scared child do something that can scar them for life.(now tell me if that is good parenting)."
I don't have children, though I hope to someday. If I were to have a child who became pregnant at a young age, and she and I were old enough to sit down and have a mature discussion about it, and we came to the decision that an abortion was the best option (and I say "best" with resignation - there is no "best" in a situation like that), would I be a bad parent if I let her have one? I would that I would be a bad parent if I made my child go through something like childbirth when she's still a child would make me a bad parent. While having an abortion could scar her for life, as Jade said, having the child could ruin it, and she could grow to spite that child and take it out on her/him later in life.
That's just my opinion, though.
Always remember that bluejays are not nice birds. |
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Vissy
Starting Member
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 9:04:22 PM
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OK time to wade in, though this time I shall try to be a little more diplomatic in my language.
Ok point 1.
quote:
it's my body, and while the fetus *may* be considered an individual life form, it's in my body
As far as I am concerned, there is no *may* about it, and in the eyes of science truth be told there is no *may* about it. As soon as an egg gets fertilised the resulting gamete is a unique collection of DNA. It does not matter how many times two people can produce children, the odds of reproducing the same DNA match as the first one is so small as to not even bother worth calculating.
By having an abortion you are killing something that is totally unique, and will never really be reproduced ever agian, and who knows that little gamete, foetus or what ever you desire to call it could become the greatest person who ever lived, someone greater than Einstein even.
But it is just a collection of cells, does not matter.
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If I were to have a child who became pregnant at a young age, and she and I were old enough to sit down and have a mature discussion about it, and we came to the decision that an abortion was the best option (and I say "best" with resignation - there is no "best" in a situation like that),
That is something I think everyone can agree on, in such a situation there is no "best choice", any choice can and will cause complications, and in the end it comes down to choosing between what the individual thinks is the lesser of two "evils" (Hate using that word for this, no child is evil, or can be considered evil).
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I would that I would be a bad parent if I made my child go through something like childbirth when she's still a child would make me a bad parent. While having an abortion could scar her for life, as Jade said, having the child could ruin it, and she could grow to spite that child and take it out on her/him later in life.
If you sat down with your child and talked through all the options, then I would actully say that you are a good mother, I may not agree with your descision but I would respect it. The problem I have with some very loud liberal views is that they do not want the child to have that discussion with thier parents about weather or not to abort, instead they think that the ONLY people who are qualified to give any advice as to having an abortion are strangers. That to me is wrong.
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While having an abortion could scar her for life, as Jade said, having the child could ruin it, and she could grow to spite that child and take it out on her/him later in life
This is one of the more common arguments I have come across from many people who are pro abortion, and it makes me laugh every time. Why? simply because I know some women who had children while in school, and I read of women who had children while in school, and without fail, and without exception not one of them wishes that they had aborted their child, and some of these women are now mid-late 20's, and thier children are approaching their teens, and still they (the parents of the children) are glad that they kept the child. And some of these girls were 15 or so when they gave birth.
In fact I remember reading of one woman who was 32 years old and a grandma, she had a child when she was 16 and her daughter had a child when she reached 16, and the 36 year old had no regrets, nor did the 15 year old.
As I say sometimes I abhor the loud far left liberal views, especially those that seem to shout that it is alright to have sex when you are a teenager (after all it is only natural, animals have been doing it for centries) and then get rid of any "side effects like pregnancy" without ever letting the parents know.
Mind you I also dislike the conservative views which get in the way of medical advances, especially when it comes to a total ban on stem cell research. They reported in the news the other day that they had created a liver in the lab from stem cells taken from the umbilical cord of a baby that had just been born. That to me is OK, and more than acceptable and I fully support that.
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Faith is something all men share with one another, they may have faith in differant things but they still all have faith. |
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DeathDealerCros
Politics & Current Events Moderator
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 9:50:59 PM
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Ok...that was quite a bit of reading to do to catch up, but before I get into my personal opinions I feel I need to address a thing or two:
While you may not agree with another person's opinions or past actions, I must ask that you please refrain from name calling and saying things that someone else may take offense to. Its safe to assume we are all adults here and can tell if something that we say (or type) could be taken as an attack or or be offended by it. I know it has been said already but calling a person or a group "butchers" or "shark bait" or telling someone they should feel guilty for an action is not considered appropriate language for civil discussion and is certainly not something you can say with a benevolent meaning behind it.
Now I know that its pretty much near impossible to have this discussion without it derailing into a discussion of abortion, but for now I'm going to just stick to the original question. I am planning on voting against Prop. 85. Mostly because of the few people I know and the many stories I've heard over the years of people being disowned or having much family resistance. Is that what happens in a majority of the cases? Probably not, but I don't have the information in front of me to say yes or no. The whole point of the system being in place the way it is now is because of those teenage girls (and younger) who were ousted from their families, or worse, harmed physically by their parents for getting pregnant. Are there girls out there taking advantage of it to just be promiscuous? Sure. But even if thats the situation for 70 out of every 100 cases, its worth it.
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Edited by - DeathDealerCros on November 01 2006 9:51:53 PM |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 10:48:56 PM
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quote:
Welcome to the site and I appreciate your straight forwardness in your viewpoints, even if I don't agree with some.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by kt_eats_paper
Because I think one of my purposes in life is to stir things up a bit...
Sometimes thats the only way to get someones attention.
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It's my body,
Yes it is. And so you can take birthcontrol, abstain or whatever else you want to ensure you don't get pregnant.(rape of course is out of your control, but the odds of getting raped and getting pregnant from that rape are really slim)
quote:
and while the fetus *may* be considered an individual life form, it's in my body.
Its not just considered or "may" be an individual life form it is. It has different DNA, bloodtype, sex, etc. It is not a part of your body, it is sharing your body.
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No one should be allowed to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body.
Its illegal in many states to kill yourself or even to attempt to kill yourself. It is illegal to inflict many things on your body. Even tattooing is illegal for minors. Its illegal to ride a motorcycle without a helmet in most states(that is telling one that they do not have the right to bump their head). I don't see liberals carrying on about that. Do you?
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If I choose to rid myself of something I can't or don't want to physically go through, that's my choice to live with.
If you want to cut your leg off, go for it.(although, in most states it is illegal to do unless the doctor says there is something wrong with your leg) But a baby with different blood type, DNA etc. that is healthy is not a threat to you life and IS NOT just an extra finger.
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But the point is, I think it should be a choice.
That sounds nice, but your choice is taking away the babies right. Your choice should have been back when you had the power to stop yourself from getting pregnant. Your choice should have been to say NO. The baby doesn't get that choice now.
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What I *don't* agree with, though, is women who have had 3, 4, 5, or more abortions - read: women who use abortions as birth control.
But that is exactly what it is being used for. Do you really believe that out of the millions of babies being aborted each year that even 1% is due to incest, rape or even abnormal health reasons?
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Also, I'm not going to comment about the law in California because I haven't had time to consider it, and truth be told, I'm torn. A 13 year old is sort of young, but I believe a 17 year old is capable of making her own decisions; she's close enough to being an "adult" anyway.
But that is what the OP is really about. But if you're going to split hairs, why even say 13? a 12 year old can get pregnant too. The other problem is that planned parenthood is only a front for mass abortion mills. Have you ever heard of them talking someone out of getting an abortion and putting them up for adoption? No, because they don't do that. They do not inform anyone of anything. They just get the forms filled out and suck out the baby. Then the send them on their way to go though any physical or mental problems somewhere else.
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I'm also interested to know if those who think that abortion is wrong think that emergency contraceptions should be illegal. Technically, if there is a fertilized egg about to be planted and it is destroyed by the medication, it's an abortion. Should those be banned as well?
Even if there was a point where both sides would agree to say enough is enough, that would at least be a start to working on a very sad problem. If they produced a true morning after pill that was really taken the morning after and all it does it cause the sperm not to fertilize the egg, I think you'd have a large portion of the anti-abortion folks going along. But even that is being done after the egg is fertilize and the girl knows shes pregnant due to sickness, testing, etc. At that point it becomes and abortion pill not an alternative birthcontrol pill.
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I don't have children, though I hope to someday.
And sadly that is why so many don't understand. When you finally see a new born child come into this world, I hope you can see the true innocense and miracle that happens before your eyes. In the meantime, I don't think folks without children can really understand.
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If I were to have a child who became pregnant at a young age, and she and I were old enough to sit down and have a mature discussion about it, and we came to the decision that an abortion was the best option (and I say "best" with resignation - there is no "best" in a situation like that), would I be a bad parent if I let her have one?
Thats a good question and one that is hard to answer. But at least you got to talk to her. How would you feel if when you went to wake up your little girl one morning she was dead or dying in a pool of blood in her bed because she was too afraid to tell you that her PE teacher took her out for an abortion without you knowing it? And she hemoridged in her sleep as you and you hubby were 10 feet away talking about how happy you were that you daughter was going to be on the junior high basketball team. Of course the media will make those parents out to be animals for not knowing she had had an abortion and was having complications.
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I would that I would be a bad parent if I made my child go through something like childbirth when she's still a child would make me a bad parent. While having an abortion could scar her for life, as Jade said, having the child could ruin it, and she could grow to spite that child and take it out on her/him later in life.
Again, at least you were able to talk with her, help her, love her, etc. But to say yes to letting some "concerned" stranger take your daughter for and abortion without you knowing it would be neglect and bad parenting.
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That's just my opinion, though.
And I hope someday you'll understand and have the pleasure and yes, pain of raising children. Also in knowing that the media has made parents out to be terrible for way too long. The % of kids in unloving families are much smaller than they want you to believe. There may be problems within a household(especially when teenagers are involved) but that doesn't mean the parents are not loving and caring for the children they brought into this world.
[quote]Always remember that bluejays are not nice birds.
I happen to believe that even bluejays are nice birds. They just got a bad rap and are now being hounded by the media.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 11:19:58 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by DeathDealerCros
Ok...that was quite a bit of reading to do to catch up, but before I get into my personal opinions I feel I need to address a thing or two:
While you may not agree with another person's opinions or past actions, I must ask that you please refrain from name calling and saying things that someone else may take offense to. Its safe to assume we are all adults here and can tell if something that we say (or type) could be taken as an attack or or be offended by it. I know it has been said already but calling a person or a group "butchers" or "shark bait" or telling someone they should feel guilty for an action is not considered appropriate language for civil discussion and is certainly not something you can say with a benevolent meaning behind it.
I'll respect your opinion, even if I may disagree.
quote:
Now I know that its pretty much near impossible to have this discussion without it derailing into a discussion of abortion, but for now I'm going to just stick to the original question.
Pretty much impossible. First you have to know what the person is about to committ before you can judge if they are old enough to handle it. Also, this covers ALL 13-17 year olds, not just the mature ones. So before some should say a 13 should be able to do something without their parent permission or involvement, people need to know what they are being allowed to do. As I've noted before, the PE teacher is unable to take the child down to get a tattoo, ear piercing etc. without parental consent, so why abortions?
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I am planning on voting against Prop. 85. Mostly because of the few people I know and the many stories I've heard over the years of people being disowned or having much family resistance. Is that what happens in a majority of the cases? Probably not, but I don't have the information in front of me to say yes or no.
Please excuse and understand that I am not trying to be offending when I say that you are then voting out of ignorance. You would condemn all the good parents that I'm sure you have "heard of" or know, because you have "heard of" stories about "family resistance". My son asks me if he can go to his friends house. Sometimes I say NO. Should I be bannished since there is some "family resistance"? Thats the hard part of parenting, making the tough decisions that affect not only the childrens lives, but the family and the societies as well. What we need is more education to teach proper parenting, not take their power(what little they have) away.
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The whole point of the system being in place the way it is now is because of those teenage girls (and younger) who were ousted from their families, or worse, harmed physically by their parents for getting pregnant.
Are we talking about some epidemic here or something. Do you have kids wandering your streets that were kicked out of their house? I'm 53 years old and live in a rather tough neighborhood. I've seen some young girls get pregnant and get abortions or have their child. I have yet to see a family turn their back on their kids. I've seen some kids go through tough love and yes, a few(mostly boys) have been kicked out of their house before the cops came and took the parents home away because the kids wouldn't stop doing drugs in the house. But I don't see an epidemic to cause all the "righteous" folks to vote away parental control of their children.
For you young folks and folks soon to have kids, beware of what you want the Govt. to control. Someday that child will be yours. It odd that the liberals(general term here) scream about their rights, but are so quick to want to take it from others. Remember, when that PE teacher takes your 13 year old out for an abortion, they won't ask if they have liberal or conservative parents.
[quote]Are there girls out there taking advantage of it to just be promiscuous? Sure. But even if thats the situation for 70 out of every 100 cases, its worth it.
Your stats are way off. What you just implied is that 30 out of 100 parents are bad or worse yet dangerous. I'm sure your folks would wonder where they would fall in that grouping. OR did you have a resistance free environment? So no its not worth it.
So should I vote to have all kids banned from the malls because there are a few roudy kids running around the malls. Wouldn't that go over good with the 98% of the good kids. Just remember though, the more power you take from the parents to do what parenting takes, the more roudy kids are going out to the malls. Parents will eventually be forced to give over ALL their obligations to the PC police. We're already afraid to discipline our kids in public, and even show signs of affection to our kids.(one might turn us in for pediphillia)
So think before you vote away the very powers you will soon regret.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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DeathDealerCros
Politics & Current Events Moderator
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - November 02 2006 : 03:52:46 AM
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I am not voting out of ignorance in any way, shape or form. Yes, a couple of the stories that I have "heard" were those that my friends were issues going on in their families. Seeing how I am currently working on becoming a lawyer(or Shark-bait, I suppose), I've already learned that not to always base things off of what I hear, but what I know. I have friends who were kicked out of the house for being pregnant. In one of the cases she secretly lived in a park not far from school every night because her parents told their relatives they would give them hell if they took in "the whore." She was too ashamed and hurt by her own family to ask for help from friends who might've tried to help get her a place to stay.
I personally was kicked out of the house for a year and forced to live a distant relative because my step-father disagreed with my life goals and I refused to change what I wanted to be for him. That is what I mean by family resistance. Having your parents say no to something you want to do and learning you can't have everything you want is something your parents are supposed to be doing. Throwing them out of the house or beating them in their time of need isn't.
And for your question, yes, I did have kids who were wandering the streets homeless. When I lived in South Central Los Angeles it was more common than where I live now, but there are a few here also. Epidemic? No. But it is a problem. And if you look I did mention that I don't know the stats and that I'm sure they were not what I stated. What I am saying is that if 2 of those 100 children were being beaten or get thrown out of the house it is worth it to have so that there is no notification before abortion. No child, teenager or young adult deserves that treatment in those years of their life. No, I am not in my 40s or 50s. I am a 20 year old who has gone through many hardships and had to grow up very early in life. No, I do not have children of my own, but I have a 12, 6 and 2 year old that I take care of 5-6 out of 7 days out of the week. I see them and take care of them more than their parents do. If it wasn't for the fact that I am their brother, they would most likely consider me their father.
And while I don't agree with you on the other things, I do agree that there needs to be some sort of parenting classes and things like affection and discipline in public should not be frowned upon in the way it is (as long as its not a complete disruption to those around them. Someone running around chasing a child with a belt in a store is not acceptable).
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 02 2006 : 11:23:54 AM
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quote:
Seeing how I am currently working on becoming a lawyer(or Shark-bait, I suppose),
I hope you get better soon. LOL j/k I was in pre-law back in 71 but the college life got me off track. Still not sure though if I regret not becoming a lawyer. I know there are good ones, but there are many bad ones too. So be good. 
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I've already learned that not to always base things off of what I hear, but what I know. I have friends who were kicked out of the house for being pregnant. In one of the cases she secretly lived in a park not far from school every night because her parents told their relatives they would give them hell if they took in "the whore." She was too ashamed and hurt by her own family to ask for help from friends who might've tried to help get her a place to stay.
Sadly, these things do happen, but when you look at the population of the World they are almost insignificant. Old people and parents are also abused by their children, maybe at about the same rate. Sadly, thats part of our World and it may get better or worst, but never go away. Humans are animals ya know.
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I personally was kicked out of the house for a year and forced to live a distant relative because my step-father disagreed with my life goals and I refused to change what I wanted to be for him. That is what I mean by family resistance. Having your parents say no to something you want to do and learning you can't have everything you want is something your parents are supposed to be doing. Throwing them out of the house or beating them in their time of need isn't.
Beating is always wrong, kicking them out of the house has sometimes saved a wayword child. But that child needs to be old enough and helped to find someplace else to live when an impasse has been reached. I have a friend that her kids got into Meth. She tried everything she could to save them, but the Meth had too good a hold on them. They were actually a danger to themselves and to her. She actually didn't have to kick them out, they ran away because she wouldn't support their habits. But I'm sure they told everyone they were kicked out(it sounds much better). So yes it does happen, but for each situation, there is a much more complex story to go with it. I'm glad to see you are trying to do something constuctive with your life. You have actually benefited some from a bad situation, you are tougher.
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And for your question, yes, I did have kids who were wandering the streets homeless. When I lived in South Central Los Angeles it was more common than where I live now, but there are a few here also. Epidemic? No. But it is a problem.
LA is a big place and it not only draws the runaways from LA and Ca., it is a magnet for the rest of the USA. So even when you can seperate the true homeless kids(which many are voluntary runaways from good homes), from the weekend warriors or just nightcrawlers(that go back to good homes every night or early morning), it is still an insignificant % of the overall population of kids. Yes, its still a problem, but it won't be solved by taking more power away from the parents that were probably already giving up since they couldn't control them in the first place.
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And if you look I did mention that I don't know the stats and that I'm sure they were not what I stated. What I am saying is that if 2 of those 100 children were being beaten or get thrown out of the house it is worth it to have so that there is no notification before abortion.
But that will not solve the problem, it will only exacerbate it. Do you really think that 13 year old will be able to keep this from her folks? Eventually she will blurt it out or something and that will only make an already abusive parent(if that is the worry) to get even more abusive.
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No child, teenager or young adult deserves that treatment in those years of their life.
You're right, but adding more pressure and responsibility to a 13 year old scared girl is not going to solve anything. If you keep up with the stories about CPS(child protective services) you'll find that most kids are still better off with a poor parent(not a monster but no angel) than they are under Govt. control. And thats what they are going to get.
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No, I am not in my 40s or 50s. I am a 20 year old who has gone through many hardships and had to grow up very early in life. No, I do not have children of my own, but I have a 12, 6 and 2 year old that I take care of 5-6 out of 7 days out of the week. I see them and take care of them more than their parents do. If it wasn't for the fact that I am their brother, they would most likely consider me their father.
Keep up the good work and help spread good works. But don't vote away your power because it is the good parents that are getting hurt with these kind of laws. Remember, someday you'll be a parent and you won't appreciate it when some stranger takes your scared 13 year old daughter to an abortion clinic because she's scared of what you might think of her. And don't think that because you are open and caring that she will just voluntarily come to you with her problem. Once they hit that age they change alot from the little girl that once sat on your lap and gave you little kisses. Trust me. If my 16 year old got pregnant, I can't say for sure if she would come to me or her mother even though we have a great bonding in our family. If she thinks she can get away without us finding out she messed up, she'll do it. She isn't abused, but she doesn't want to tarnish our view of her.
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And while I don't agree with you on the other things, I do agree that there needs to be some sort of parenting classes and things like affection and discipline in public should not be frowned upon in the way it is (as long as its not a complete disruption to those around them. Someone running around chasing a child with a belt in a store is not acceptable).
Becareful also of what you think you see when someone is chasing their kid with a belt. Sometimes they are only messing around. I know you mean the true abusive animal that does exist, but in my 53 years I've never seen one in public. They tend to be very kind in public and let the animal out in private. They may be monsters, but they aren't always stupid.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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Abortion & Parent Notification
