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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
 Posted - November 01 2006 : 1:00:46 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Vainamoinen
I'm shark-bait, apparently. Very broad-minded of you, Vissy. Any other insults you want to hurl while you're at it? I'm sure you can think of some other nasty words to call your fellow humans. You're a credit to your political party, you are. You call us 'bleeding heart' liberals. Maybe it's because someone STABBED US THERE.
By this comment and your avoiding the OP, you are doing nothing to dispell this belief.
quote:
Middle ground is about looking past your own party line and your own set of prejudices and schemas about morality and trying to talk to other people in a way that isn't patently designed to offend them. I disagree with your views, but if I said "You conservatives are responsible for so many of the terrible things that happen in the world," or "Conservatives aren't good for much apart from shark-bait", you'd be all over it, and we'd get nowhere.
If you believe that conservative are responsible for something bad, state the bad things they have done. And since Vissy is British, I'm not even sure what "party" he belongs to. Our comments towards "liberals" are towards a belief system that we disagree with not a party. Sadly though, the Democrats in America have been taken over by the liberals. My folks used to be Democrats when they were conservative. So it is not a party that we see as dangerous, it is a mind set or belief system that is dangerous.
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But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe my "polite" bleeding-heart liberal shark-bait ways are just getting the best of me. Hey, I know! Let's all sit around and accuse each other's viewpoint of causing all the problems in the modern world! And if that doesn't work, we can always call each other names.
NO, lets sit around and discuss the OP, which is abortion and the parental notification of their minor children before getting one. Thats what we are discussing. It just so happens that the ones that oppose parental notification and constantly vote for abortion on demand and even late term abortion are liberals(which in America are mostly Democrats) These are facts, not just viewpoints of gut feelings.
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The shortest verse in the Bible is "Jesus wept."
Yes, and I'm sure he is still weeping for all the dead babies.
[quote]The only thing wrong with it is the past tense.
Why do you assume that he is not still weeping?
I have wept also, I just wept last night when watching a great movie called, "the Diary of an Angry Black Woman"
And I'm sure I will weep more in the future. Especially if the liberals don't come to their senses and understand that moral restraint is good and there is no shame in saying NO to immoral acts.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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middleground
Middle Ground Administrator
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 1:15:59 PM
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Apparently the old saying "while the cat's away, the mice will play" is very accurate.
I am all for the art of debate. I support discussion, and open communication. I do NOT support the flaming, bashing, slandering, or name-calling I am seeing.
Middle Ground is a forum for all people. Throwing insults at people (even a whole group of people) is counter-productive to the Mission Statement of this forum.
Did some of you miss or forget this rule, posted in the Rules section, on the first and only post in the rules section?
"All users are expected to act and behave in a manner appropriate to civil discussion."
Since when is "shark-bait", "baby butcher", "poison", etc. manner appropriate to civil discussion?
For the record, here are two meanings for civil which pertain currently, and to which I am expecting all members to adhere to:
1) adhering to the norms of polite social intercourse; not deficient in common courtesy
2) marked by benevolence
So, let's stop the name calling and slanderous remarks, alright?
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Quilty
Starting Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 1:24:35 PM
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In 1992, my daughter's 16 year old best friend came to me in tears. Her parents belong to one of those churches that lined up in the street in front of abortion clinics protesting, and she was pregnant. Her parents would NEVER have understood -- either here having sex, getting pregnant, or wanting to abort. Ours is a state requiring minors to have parental permission.
She has bright orange curls almost to her waist, and was convinced someone from the church would recognize her. So I lied on a notarized form and said I was her mother, and took her to the clinic. (Since I was 5 months pregnant with twins, I walked around the BACK of the car in full view, so as to divert attention from her. LOL They practically went into hysterics, assuming I was the patient. No one even noticed she was there.
Three years later, she married her boyfriend, and they have a beautiful little red-haired daughter who is 7. She is treasured all the more because at 25, her mother had such terrible female problems, she had to have a hysterectomy.
She would have been disowned and on the street if her parents had known she was pregnant. What would you have done? Let her become a pariah, or the give her the time to be the excellent labor and delivery nurse that she is today?
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 1:57:57 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Quilty
In 1992, my daughter's 16 year old best friend came to me in tears. Her parents belong to one of those churches that lined up in the street in front of abortion clinics protesting, and she was pregnant. Her parents would NEVER have understood -- either here having sex, getting pregnant, or wanting to abort. Ours is a state requiring minors to have parental permission.
You assume so much. First, you assumed that because her parents protest the killing of babies that they wouldn't love and/or help their daughter make a proper decision. But you bypasted their obligation to protect their child. How would you like them to return the favor and take your daughter down to a tattoo parlor because you don't believe in them? I don't think you would appreciate some strange woman yanking your obligation to protect you child away in the still of the night. Maybe someday some other stranger will do the same for you or one of your loved ones and forge their name so someone can get a flu shot, not knowing that that kid is allergic.
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She has bright orange curls almost to her waist, and was convinced someone from the church would recognize her. So I lied on a notarized form and said I was her mother, and took her to the clinic. (Since I was 5 months pregnant with twins, I walked around the BACK of the car in full view, so as to divert attention from her. LOL They practically went into hysterics, assuming I was the patient. No one even noticed she was there.
This is sick, you not only lied, you forged a name. You really should be ashamed of your actions. What if she had a medical condition you weren't aware of. What if she hemridged as so many do and you weren't around to whisk her off to get real medical care. What if due to her own conscience or even due to her going to that church she went into deep guilt and did something drastic without you there to whisk off for help. Her parents would never understand, because they never knew.
quote:
Three years later, she married her boyfriend, and they have a beautiful little red-haired daughter who is 7. She is treasured all the more because at 25, her mother had such terrible female problems, she had to have a hysterectomy.
Sounds like her family may have a medical history of female problems that you didn't know about. I'll bet though to this day she won't talk about the one she killed will she. I have some family members and friends that have had abortions and to this day carry mental and/or physical damage. A few of them are now unable to have that beautiful little red-haired daughter. Either they were given that once shot at pregnancy or the abortion cause complications, no matter what, they can no longer bear children.
[quote]She would have been disowned and on the street if her parents had known she was pregnant. What would you have done? Let her become a pariah, or the give her the time to be the excellent labor and delivery nurse that she is today?
You know that for a fact? Or do you just carry that bias against some parents that carry a different belief system than you do. Because one doesn't believe in abortion does not make one an unloving parent. Many good Christians that get the unexpected pregnancy of their children have either helped raise the new baby, helped find a good home for the child, and yes, even taken their child in for an abortion.
How dare outsiders assume that a parent that has successfully raised their child into the teens is now incapable of handling the misguided actions of their child or a new grandchild. You were wrong in your actions.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 2:07:32 PM
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CoR, while I have no problem not using the term "butcher", could you help me with a more PC term for cutting up a baby inside a womb of a mother and using cold steel tools and a vacuum to extract the pieces of a baby? Maybe that is the true problem, we are too afraid to say the truth and let women and children understand what they do in order to stop a baby from reaching its first breath of air. We allow the PC crowd to define abortion of a child to the right of a woman.
Did you know that due to that definition a woman took a gun and shot her belly to kill her baby the day she was to go give birth and she got away with it. Now if I was to shoot a pregnant woman in the belly to kill a baby of mine because I didn't want it to live, guess what would happen to me. So whether or not one dislikes my terms or anyone elses terms, that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that we have allowed mass murder of millions of babies and now we do it behind the backs of parents. This is insain.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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middleground
Middle Ground Administrator
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 2:27:47 PM
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JADE. What *is* relevant is that you will abide by the rules and engage in civil discussion, *Or* You can willingly choose to ignore them. I do hope you choose the former and not the latter of those two options.
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 3:14:17 PM
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I am being civil. Just because I have a point of view that may not be the same as another does not mean I am not being civil. You know me well enough that I don't sugar coat anything, especially when we are discussing among adults here.
What I do see though is folks afraid to discuss the OP. I would much rather see that than people fussing over a word or name they don't agree with. Sheesh, I hope we aren't going to have to walk around on egg shells here hoping not to "offend" someone. Lets do some real debating and try to reach middleground instead of ignore the facts and wish things were as they will never be.
Point out where my comments are incorrect, then we can resolve something.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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middleground
Middle Ground Administrator
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 3:20:58 PM
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Butcher is simply not a term used in civil discourse. I'm not talking about walking around on eggshells. But calling liberals butchers is simply not something that needs to be said. You are free to say you disagree with someone. Or their political views. You are even free to say that their political views disgust you. You're free to point out why you disagree, in fact we encourage that. But calling people (or groups of people) names is not something I will tolerate. It's a childish tactic used to create an emotional response. And *you're* better than that, JADE. So act like it. And you know me well enough to know I don't tolerate attacks, of any kind. Discussion and debate are just that, discussion *AND* debate. No need for attacking someone (or groups) to prove a point, in fact if you can't prove a point without namecalling, your point probably needs more to support itself.
Show us why you disagree, but leave the name calling out of it.
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 4:11:26 PM
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What do you call the cutting apart of a babies body in the womb to be able to extract the parts with tools and a vacuum? And don't just say abortion. I spent 4 months on board the USS Constellation as a Butcher. I also was raised on a ranch and did my share of butchering cattle, deer, elk etc.
The analogy is very similar. As far as who is for and who is against abortion on demand, it is an easily proven statistic that liberals overwhelmingly vote for and conservatives overwhelmingly vote against. If one can prove differently please do.
Now can we get over the issue of symantics and discuss the ORIGINAL POST.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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ChainLightning
New Member
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2006 : 4:28:02 PM
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I find it very telling that this has turned into a debate about abortion, at all.
An unemancipated teen/child getting a medical procedure done withOUT their parents' knowledge? THAT is frightening. Forget about what the procedure is. Legalize this and 13 year old kids will be getting tummy tucks and lyposuction next??
I may be a prude, but no doctor is going to TOUCH my kid, without me being there. Since I'm the *responsible adult* - the bills all seem to come to me, I'm going to be there!
The issue is that many parents AREN'T supportive of their kids, aren't understanding of and with their kids. Those same parents don't have a PART in their child's life; they didn't educate them about the risks of teen sex, the likelihood of pregnancy, they probably used a TV for a babysitter.
Yeah, that's abhorrant. Yes, there needs to be some changes made! But removing the *responsible adult*, hiding, disregarding the PARENTS of a teen whilst performing ANY medical procedure is not just risky, to the kid, but it means that parents AREN'T parents anymore. Government becomes the parent. The REAL parents become brood machines - without rights to protect or KNOW what is going on with their own kids.
Emancipated teens don't have this restriction. They do not fall under a parents responsibility any longer, and as such are not referenced or covered by this proposition.
For reference, DDC's original post:
quote:
Originally posted by DeathDealerCros
In California we have a proposition on the ballot (Prop. 85) to amend the CA Constitution so that a physician has to notify the parents of an unemancipated minor 48 hours before they perform an abortion on that minor.
What are your thoughts?
Now, as to this being a debate about abortion - that's amazing skills of debate tactics, at work. It's called a Red Herring. Sorry.
My own Debate rules:
The first rule of debate; know the tactics.
Second rule of debate; argue the point, not the person.
Third rule of debate; remember that you may be alone in your opinion, and may be asked to back up statements (of facts) with references.
In this particular debate, we didn't even make it to rule #3.
Calm down, folks, this is only a test, had it not been a test, but *the real thing* we would have been given instructions. Step-by-step. Since it's only a test, we HAVE to just *wing it* and decide our own actions simply by basing them, measuring them by our own ethics, values and morals. Since no two poeple have those exact same principles - there's GOING to be different steps to follow, by different people. There's going to be differing views, and NONE of them are better or worse than the other - just different.
THAT, by the way, is semantics.
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Edited by - ChainLightning on November 01 2006 4:47:59 PM |
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Abortion & Parent Notification
