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pizzaguy
Starting Member
USA
34 Posts |
 Posted - August 30 2006 : 07:31:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vainamoinen
Very well, what is it that you think I am ignorant of? The laws of physics? I wasn't talking about them. But I don't think we will come to any agreement in this case. I don't think we're speaking the same language.
I am thinking of this statement...
The fact that we don't understand them? No one knows WHY atomic bombs do what they do- only that you can combine a and b to get c. We don't know what dreams are ... or why ANYTHING does what it does.
E=MC2 is probably the most known formula in history - yet you dismiss it.
So, we don't know why ANYTHING does what it does? Do you really want to die on THAT hill? That is to say, how far do you want to take that?
I admit that there is a lot we, as humans, don't know. But your statements above are a BIG reason why Christians are viewed as a bunch of "scientific ignoramus's". How you can sit there and deny the (God given, IMO) scientific knowledge that we have gained is beyond me.
But, perhaps we ARE not speaking the same language - that occured to me to.
Where is the candidate that will pander to the white people? |
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Vainamoinen
Paganism Forum Moderator
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - August 30 2006 : 3:28:39 PM
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One: What does this have to do with Christians? I am not Christian, and religion never entered into the equation, so where the heck did that statement come from?
Two: You continue to tell me HOW things work. Not why. I have not, do not, and will not deny the scientific knowledge we have accrued by this time, nor its usefulness, but HOW is not WHY.
No, we are clearly not speaking the same language.
...dabbling all the way down... |
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pizzaguy
Starting Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - August 30 2006 : 5:02:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vainamoinen
One: What does this have to do with Christians? I am not Christian, and religion never entered into the equation, so where the heck did that statement come from?
Ooops. Sorry. I made an assumption! My bad, way bad!
quote:
Two: You continue to tell me HOW things work. Not why. I have not, do not, and will not deny the scientific knowledge we have accrued by this time, nor its usefulness, but HOW is not WHY.
Ya lost me. What are you really getting at here? I don't see how the 'how' and 'why' can be TOO disconnected.
Help me out here.
Where is the candidate that will pander to the white people? |
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Vainamoinen
Paganism Forum Moderator
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - August 30 2006 : 6:18:25 PM
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1) No worries, most of the western world is Christian.
2) Essentially, it gets back to a theological discussion. For instance, we know water boils at 100 degrees. Okay, but why? How'd that come to happen? Why that specific temperature? A common answer, and I think one you were hinting at earlier, is that God sets the rules. I don't have any problem with that belief, but in my eyes, we really don't know. Some people have beliefs, other people have ideas, but no one's really sure. We just got plunked down in this funky universe- we're not sure what happened before, nor what'll happen after. And while we can quantify the many things that happen, we don't know why the rules are that way.
Does that help at all?
...dabbling all the way down... |
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ChainLightning
New Member
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - August 30 2006 : 6:19:14 PM
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I hate to interupt (mostly because it's so far off topic) but... Pizzaguy? What Vain is saying is that yeah, we know HOW fusion (or fission) happens, we know that when we multiply mass by the speed of light squared we get energy. We know that when we split a heavy isotope into lighter elements we an atomic explosion and when we combing or fuse hydrogen isotopes and release vast amounts of energy. We know how all that happens, we can plan out the events before they happen.
But the *why* it happens is still theory. Most, if not all, quantum physics is based on theories that work. Even physics, which is also theory-based and proven that those theories work, doesn't tell *why* just *how* it happens.
Example: We know that the *law gravity* involves a *pull towards mass* and the *law of electro-magnetism* is about polarity (positive/negative) of sub-atomic particles - then WHY does gravity work against the laws of magnetism, not HOW, but why. *How* is easy, gravity is REALLY really weak on that small scale. *Why* do these two laws stand in opposition to each other? They contradict each other.
And Vain? Science explains HOW, philosophy explains why. You can't use science to explain philosophy just as much as you can't use philosophy to explain science. That's the basis for this *arguement*, really.
In terms of ghosts (in which I personally believe but am skeptical of claims) I don't think science can explain the HOW they exist (and therefor prove that they do indeed exist) simply because science hasn't progressed that far *yet*. But that's just my opinion, YMMV. |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - August 30 2006 : 7:18:46 PM
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Good points CL. It came across clear to me.
God bless,
JADE
**********************************************
I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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Vainamoinen
Paganism Forum Moderator
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - August 30 2006 : 8:12:29 PM
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Chain: While I'm not sure I agree, I've never intended to use science to explain philosophy. Only to delineate between the known and the unknown.
...dabbling all the way down... |
Edited by - Vainamoinen on August 30 2006 8:13:04 PM |
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ChainLightning
New Member
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - August 31 2006 : 02:11:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vainamoinen
... Only to delineate between the known and the unknown.
...dabbling all the way down...
Precisely why I didn't understand how physics even entered into the existence of ghosts 
And yeah I know you weren't trying to explain philosophy by any stretch, but the arguement, itself, was a debate on beliefs, not science.
To be clear, just because something doesn't hold up to scientific analyses, doesn't mean it isn't still true. It doesn't mean it's false, either. And thus philosophy.
And religion. |
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Vainamoinen
Paganism Forum Moderator
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - August 31 2006 : 02:59:34 AM
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Chain: I'm not sure either. I think I got drawn into semantics somewhere along the line and lost my way. But I think I agree with you about all of that. Except the fact that anything we can't prove is either philosophy or religion. But that's semantics, I think. I hope.
...where was I?...
Shame on you for confusing an old man...
...dabbling all the way down... |
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pizzaguy
Starting Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - August 31 2006 : 08:51:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JADE
Good points CL. It came across clear to me.
God bless,
JADE
Actually, BOTH of the two posts prior to JADE's helped.
My big problem here was that I THOUGHT I was arguing with a (fellow) Christian who's stand was that "we really don't know anything - only God does". And I disagree with that.
But it doesn't matter that I disagree with that, as it wasn't what was being said, anyway! 
EDIT: Oh, and just to get back on topic, I still think Ghosts are baloney.
Where is the candidate that will pander to the white people? |
Edited by - pizzaguy on August 31 2006 08:54:04 AM |
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Do you believe in Ghosts?
