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Christy
Abrahamic Forum Co-Moderator
138 Posts |
 Posted - August 28 2006 : 09:23:52 AM
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The Bible is the Word of God...
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Holy men of God wrote the scriptures as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
It is the Word of God because God inspired these Holy men to write the thoughts of God, The holy Spirit guided their minds.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
If you are reading any Bible published in English it is a translation. Just as we have translators for the spoken words, we also have them for the written words be it the Bible or any other written word. Just because it is translated by a human does not make it no less the word of God.
Just a Mom did a really good job explaining here.....thanks JAM and welcome to MG
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"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
http://angel2drew.forumco.com |
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Christy
Abrahamic Forum Co-Moderator
138 Posts |
Posted - August 28 2006 : 09:38:32 AM
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Now for Blues questions.......
Hi sweetie.....
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You say the Bible is Gods words but it was writen in the hands of men. It is in human nature to change and challenge things to suite them. So how are we to know what is real?
Part of you question I answered in the above post. As for who do we know what is real? Well, that is called faith and faith is .....
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
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It was said that God never changes. Is that God himself or his words?
Both... "I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6a).
And if God is the Word.... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1
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Why was he so vengeful in the beginning to those who did not believe and then turned around and left us alone?
Can you give me an example of what you are talking about here?
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Change is inevitible, it is humanity. Since God created us in his image, does this count for our way of thinking as well?
God made sinless man in His image. Remember Adam and Eve were created before sin entered into the world.
thanks for your questions
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"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
http://angel2drew.forumco.com |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - August 28 2006 : 11:42:43 AM
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Originally posted by BlueRose
You say the Bible is Gods words but it was writen in the hands of men.
All good questions and concerns. And even within the Christian camps there are disagreements to a point on various topics within our religion.
The easiest way for me to understand that the Bible is the Word of God even though man did put pen to paper is rather simple. It was God inspired not written. Now one can take it from that point and believe that the first men or the most recent translators messed up what God had inspired them to write. I can understand that. I can also understand how it can be perfect yet misunderstood. That is more how I work with what is written when in my human mind I am having trouble understanding what is written. I'm sure you have in your life seen, read or heard many things that to you was as clear as glass, yet someone else was confused. Thats because we are human and prone to mistakes and errors. So the Word can still be perfect and inspired by God yet misunderstood by us no matter how it is written or explained.
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It is in human nature to change and challenge things to suite them. So how are we to know what is real?
Yes, we are the problem and yes, that makes much of life that is touched by man difficult to believe.
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It was said that God never changes. Is that God himself or his words? Why was he so vengeful in the beginning to those who did not believe and then turned around and left us alone?
Again one has to look outside of the box and also use an understanding that is not so human. We call most everything we do as "changing our minds" when in fact our mind is not changed, but our actions are just different. I love my children and that will never change. When I have to change an action from praise to disappointment it has nothing to do with my unchanging love for my children. So God can be unchanging even though he has used different actions to get his childrens attention.
[quote]Change is inevitible, it is humanity. Since God created us in his image, does this count for our way of thinking as well?
While we may have some of his way of thinking we are far from being anything close to God, thats like saying that my teacher was Einstien therefore I think like him and am just like him. And you are right, "humanity" is forever changing and so are our definitions of what changing means. But one has to remember that those are Earthly traits and have nothing to do with God.
Sometime we make things just too difficult to grasp. That is why our faith has to be childlike and not childish. Childlike is just in accepting what we may never be able to understand. Childish is being foolish in what we believe.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - August 28 2006 : 12:30:54 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Fullmetal_A
First of all the Bible WAS written by man. King James had the bible written and changed for himself. After all the years that its been around over half of the the bible cant be real.
More good questions and understand that God has no problems with questions. Yes the pen to paper was man, but the inspiration was God's. As I said in the previous post, there are differing views of how this is able to come about. But it was not "changed" for King James, and it(the Word) has not changed over the centuries. Our interpretations have changed, but the Word is unchanging. And example would be like the word "cool" the original word meant something of a low temperture. That will never change. But over time we have confused the word by bringing human relativity into play. Whats cool to one is not cool to another. So then we create a definition that cool is a temperature inbetween 50 degrees and 40 degrees(I am just coming up with numbers, this is not scientific). We would then say "cold" is between 40 and 0, "real cold" is 0 to -100, "extreme cold"....you get the picture.
Then someone says, "Is that f or c?" so the debate goes on and it is added to the definition. After many discussions, debates, fights etc. we eventually have the meaning of "cool". We think. then some fool on pot uses the word to mean "great" and the confusion goes on.
Now when someone uses the word "cool" many ideas pop in our heads as to what they mean, is it correct, or has the definition changed again.
But ya know what, the original meaning of "cool" and the fact that there is such a thing as something being cool has never changed, only our definitions and interpretations.
The Bible has had some minor changes over the years, but they are very minor and were meant to clear up not confuse what the original meaning was. But even if not one jot or tittle was changed from the origianl scrolls, we as humans would still error in our understanding of it on some areas.
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Besieds Jesus wanted the bible to be a guide NOT a set of rules written in stone. Its to help us on our way not to bar it.
I'm not quite sure where you get that from or if I understand you correctly on that. But again, that is man's understanding of things. Its like whenever one wishes not to do something, they say things are guidelines not rules. Thats man's relativity and weakness to accept authority kicking in there. I've yet to see anything in the Bible that even implies that it is only a guideline.
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Those who take the bible to heart and think its words are set in stone I think are fools.
Eveyone is free to have their opinions. Many Christians feel that folks that are unable to look around at all the wonderful creations made by God are fools. I tend to believe they are just not looking or looking in the right places. To call people fools is reserved for the ones that have seen, do understand, and then deny. Those are fools.
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Most good christians I know accept this.
I'm not sure what you are saying they accept and where you get your statistics from.
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Gays are the same as us in all aspects they love they hate, just because they like the same sex doesnt mean they arent human.
I haven't heard anyone say they weren't human. By the way, pediphiles, killers, rapists, liars, adulterers also love and hate and are humans. There are a few, and that is a very small portion of Christians, that use hateful words towards gays and others they believe are damned. And that is not only wrong, but not Christian. We are to help save people from being damned, it is not our job to damn them.
God and Christians are only trying to save all sinners(and all of us sin) from eternal damnation. We don't pick and chose which sin is bad or worse than another. Although our human nature leads us to do that kind of rationalization. But only God has the final judgement on whether or not we are saved and whether or not our one big sin or many little sins will affect our salvation. There we can only have faith and leave the rest to God.
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Besides that God meant us to worship him so why should I have to go to church to worship god? I can do it just fine at home. "The kingdom of god is all around you split a piece of would and I am there,lift a stone and you will find me.
Yes, there is no real rule or "guideline" as to what a church is, how often one must go, etc. They are more for us to get together and fellowship, learn, help others, etc.
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If you ask me christians are too ready to say that something they dont understand is a sin.
so they themselve sin everyday. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I think god meant us to live our lives to the fullest and be happy as long as we believe in him he will be there.
Yes, some are a bit ignorant of what a sin is. But if one never studies the Bible, then they will always remain ignorant also. If they rely on man's definition they will be ignorant also. Remember, man used to think(still do in many Islam countries)that slavery was fine. So do you want to rely on man's relative thinking to guide you to eternal life? Or even to lead you to your next job interview? I would look for more.
As far as being happy, yes God wants that I'm sure. But he also wants obedience. In this respect he is truly a father. I am not sure if you are a parent, but if you are or ever will be, you'll understand how a parent wishes their children to be happy, but also obedient. If you want to see some "happy" but not obedient folks, just watch Jerry Springer or any of the shows like that. Do you want your kids to grow up and be on those shows. They are HAPPY and doing their thing.
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"Mathew 16:26- For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
Good quote, I hope you live by that.
[quote]Some have knowledge, others believe in faith.
I've been meaning to talk to you about your sig line. I hope you realise that while that may be a cute saying, it is rather offensive to anyone that has faith. And I mean anyone, not just Christians or other religious folks. It is actually slamming anyone that has faith in their spouse, friends, family etc. It is saying they are dumb if they have faith. I actually feel that anyone that can not have faith is empty. And no knowledge or amount of knowledge will ever fill that void. But, if that is your belief, I will accept that and pray that you someday find faith in something.
I hope nothing I have said is offensive to you, none of it was meant in that way. Truth is like a double edged sword, it can set one free and/or can cut one deep.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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Fullmetal_A
Starting Member
35 Posts |
Posted - August 28 2006 : 4:21:51 PM
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Ok think about this we are here to help each other with questions not to change anyones faith. Jade you have helped me alot in understanding, but also opened more questions. As for my sig line its meant to say just what it says. As long as you have faith in all you do and in everyone around you regaurdless of your knowledge you will suceed maybe not in the way you expect but you will always succed. Know as for the bible... You said that to rely on mans definition is ignorance."If they rely on man's definition they will be ignorant also." But man wrote and translted the bible so therefore you cannot tell me that a least the bible cannot be a little wrong. People aren't alawys right in their translations some is guess work. We cant be 100% right. Plus you said truth is a double edged sword, yes I believe that, but I believe it's how you interpret the truth that makes it that way. Oh and JADE thank you for understanding that my opinion is my opinion. I really mean that.You are not like some of the other christians I've met. I've met quite a few that think Im going to hell because I cant make it to church all the time, I prefer to be at home with my friends and family. Yes we worship god but in our own way. The way I look at it I'm going to live my life to the fullest and be happy, as long as I have god in my heart I'll be ok. As for the bible, it was written by man and man is flawed so the bible at least has to be a little flawed. Especially since so much knowledge was lost before the written word came about. Stuff has been left out some replaced to fill in the lost, truthfully we may never here of a complete bible but we may, you just never know. Yes the bible was god and jessus inspired but agian writtne by man and man is flawed. That is why I think of it as a guide to help better our lives, not rules set in stone. As for my quote M 16:26, It's one of my favorites, it reminds me of my family... for personal reasons. So it means alot to me. Let me ask you this Jade, really and truthfully If someone is gay and yet keeps god in his heart, not nesicaraly (sorry about spelling. lol) christian but has faith does that mean hes any different than a christian that keeps god in their heart? Isnt keeping god in our hearts the important thing? Sorry slid 2 questions in a ounce LOL. See through the exchange of knowledge and having faith we have become more knowledgable.LOL Thanx again for your help JADE.
Some have knowledge, others believe in faith. |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - August 28 2006 : 6:02:56 PM
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In order not get redundant pertaining to man and the Bible, I'll try to answer all your points here. Thats not to say I won't stir up more questions or come across clearly. Just to try not to go to lengthy on one point.
The relationship between God's Word, man's ability to understand, interpret, put pen to paper, and the Bible is very complex. It has so many variables that can confuse the reader. So first lets assume God's Word is perfect, he inspired the right folks to write the right things down, he inspired the right folks to read it and understand it as he meant it. THAT WOULD BE PERFECT.
But not gunna happen. I think all Christians will agree that God's Word is perfect.(I see no hands, so I'll take that as assumption correct) LOL Now comes a more difficult assumption, that God inspired the right folks to put pen to paper and relay his perfect Word into the Bible. Here we have all kinds of ways to take this. If God is as great as we believe him to be and to God all things are possible, then he could do that, right? That is the stance that most Christians take. We don't look at the faulty human that wrote it, but the perfect God that inspired them to write it.
If one doesn't believe God has the ability to inspire a human(that he created) to write down a few words, then one would have a less than highest opinion of the Almighty God. I won't go into all the scenerios one might take if they don't believe God has the ability to or that God did inspire the writing of the Bible since that could go all over the place. For example, what percent is truth and what percent is error due to man's interpretation. WOW, for that we should get a congressional hearing on. LOL That would clear things up.
OK, so lets assume that not only is God's Word perfect, but his ability to have his creations put pen to paper was perfect. We are getting somewhere now. We have the perfect author and the perfect book. What else could one ask for?
What about the perfect man. Only one that I know of and that was Jesus. So Houston, we have a problem. MAN God bless the little man with the big egos. God bless the man that is born into sin and can't go a day without sinning. NOW, give him the perfect book authored by the perfect God and see just how bad he can muck it up.
Here I am in total agreement with anyone that says we don't KNOW what God wants. We have faith and we have the tech manual. But our little minds with the big egos will end up having extra parts every time we try to put something together even by the book. So we do struggle, and we do disagree in part to what we THINK the Bible tells us. But we keep going through the tech manual and eventually we find where one part goes to, then another, then another. Eventually we build a pretty darn good widget. But it was only due to perserverance, accepting that we needed help, and going to the right tech manual to find where we went wrong.
Last point, If one doesn't even go to the tech manual, do you really think they can put something as complex as LIFE together properly. Should we trust the ones that not only don't go to the manual, but slam the widget together and even if it doesn't work, claim that their widget is correctly built and we need to rewrite the manual to fit the unworking widget?
quote:
As for my sig line its meant to say just what it says. As long as you have faith in all you do and in everyone around you regaurdless of your knowledge you will suceed maybe not in the way you expect but you will always succed.
Your signature line. quote:
Some have knowledge, others believe in faith.
WOW, a perfect example of how faulty man's interpretation can be. The same comment meant two entirely different things to each of us. You saw it as "some have knowledge, But others have something greater, others believe in faith". I saw. "some have knowledge, But other rely on fantasy, others believe in faith." So we have again shown why we need to learn so much more before we not only judge, but before try to retell what we think another person has told us. Sorry for my misinterpretation, I am but a man.
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Oh and JADE thank you for understanding that my opinion is my opinion. I really mean that.You are not like some of the other christians I've met. I've met quite a few that think Im going to hell because I cant make it to church all the time,
I think you'll find that the holier than thou crowd is really quite small. And even then their heart is in the right place, its their mouth that sometimes drops down to another place in which they speak from. LOL
quote:
I prefer to be at home with my friends and family. Yes we worship god but in our own way. The way I look at it I'm going to live my life to the fullest and be happy, as long as I have god in my heart I'll be ok.
And that is good and no one has all the answers to what God is going to base his judgement on. But the one thing one has to not fall into is that "all one needs to do" mentality. Yes, faith in God is necessary, and works won't get you there(OK works people, back off, this is my post) But if you truly have God in your heart, you will do good works. And while that is not a ticket to heaven, God will judge us and I know I am going to do the best I can to please him. Even knowing that I may fall short and that my sins may out weigh my good works and faith in my Lords eyes.
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Let me ask you this Jade, really and truthfully If someone is gay and yet keeps god in his heart, not nesicaraly (sorry about spelling. lol) christian but has faith does that mean hes any different than a christian that keeps god in their heart?
That falls in that "we will never truly KNOW" category. Anymore than when I was a drinker, drug users, cusser, etc. I don't know if that is going to be held against me. But I do know that the Bible has told me that many of the things I have done, still do, and will probably do in the future is a sin. But when I realize I am doing something that feels wrong or I know is wrong as per the interpretation of the majority of Christians, then I am not doing a service to myself or others or God by continuing down that path.
The gay issue is very difficult and I have many friends and relatives that are gay, bisexual, have gay tendancies, etc. My human side sees there is a problem. But it also sees that in other actions done by others. Should we allow bullies to hit people because it makes them feel good. Should we we allow drunks to keep drinking. The Bible does not say these people are less human, but it does say their actions are wrong. So I don't have the answer to what the end results will be for any of us sinners. I just know that I try to correct any flaws that I find I may have and especially if it is written in the Bible. Because I am a Christian and the Bible is the Word of God to me.
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Isnt keeping god in our hearts the important thing?
One last comment on this kind of mindset. As I said before, it is very important to have God in your heart, but if you don't believe in his Word, or follow his "guidelines" then is he really in your heart. How would your folks look upon you if you said, "I have you in my heart" yet you disobeyed all their wishes, you disrespected them, you turned your back on what they had tried to teach you as you grew up. They would surely still love you since you are of them and nothing can change that. But when the crapolla hits the fan, will they be there for you? Or will they judge you as unworthy of their time. They can still love you, but they can also wash their hands of you.
I have enjoyed the chance to discuss these issues with you and again hope that none is taken as disrespectful.
I am sure as time comes around, I'll be asking questions of others that I am not so comfortable with my knowledge of. I gather that some here are rather young and I have teenager in the house. I do have some questions about that species.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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kiwimac
Starting Member
New Zealand
17 Posts |
Posted - August 29 2006 : 04:41:37 AM
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Actually, Christ is the Word of God, the Bible contains the "Words about God" mostly.
The Bible, inspired or not, was nonetheless written by human-beings, moreover human-beings that God did NOT turn into typewriters just for this process, so what they wrote was inevitably filtered through their experience, their culture, their beliefs about themselves and others.
Kiwimac
It is the job of thinking people, not to be on the side of the executioners.
-Albert Camus |
Edited by - kiwimac on August 29 2006 04:42:53 AM |
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BlueRose
New Member
61 Posts |
Posted - August 29 2006 : 04:44:49 AM
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How many bibles are there anyway?
A rose has it's beauty, but it also has it's thorns. |
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kiwimac
Starting Member
New Zealand
17 Posts |
Posted - August 29 2006 : 05:24:47 AM
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Are you asking "How many translations of the Hebrew and Greek are there?" OR "How many differing books of scripture are there?"
It is the job of thinking people, not to be on the side of the executioners.
-Albert Camus |
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JADE
Junior Member
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - August 29 2006 : 12:43:19 PM
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As you can see FA, we humans can disagree on most anything. LOL But the Word of God can still be perfect while we humans muddle up the intent and true meanings.
God bless,
JADE
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I question...Therefore I think...I think...Therefore I am...I think? |
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