| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Buber |
Posted - November 25 2006 : 11:15:19 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is the reason for including the 'k' in magick or musick... etc..
Just curious...
I can do the robo-cop. |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Vainamoinen |
Posted - December 16 2006 : 04:29:13 AM
I think you misunderstand me, MG. I mean freedom or death for me. As in a personal credo: "Live free or die." I didn't mean to suggest you had said anything about freedom or death. And yes, the issue is probably polarized. To me your view is restrictive, to you mine is (I'm guessing) wasteful and unfocused. And that's okay.
...dabbling all the way down... |
| ChainLightning |
Posted - December 16 2006 : 03:45:28 AM
You'll notice I backed out of it.
*Lumps of clay* or *freedom or death* - we're talking about spritual lessons learned along the path of one's chosen religion. It already IS a polarized issue.
While I give a great amount of credit to the teachers, the people that SHARE their knowledge and experience, I give even more credence to those that learn (about their path) without the benefit of someone else's poking, prodding, guiding, limitations, expectations, knowledge, ignorance, biases, prejudices, opinions, experience or any of the above. It isn't about being molded OR retaining one's freedom. It's about belief. And how that belief evolves.
Whereas I reject the use of a K in the word magic, I also reject someone telling me what to believe. And it doesn't stop there. I also reject the idea that I can learn it ALL, all by myself.
We are all teachers and students. I feel that teachers perform an almost heroic act with people uninterested in learning. I also feel that inquisitive students are pheomenal, even in the presence of lousy teachers. I try to teach what I know and learn all I can. I just don't (and can't) rely on teachers to accomplish that learning.
That's where I start twitching with initiation ceremonies. I did a dedication rite. I feel dedicated - myself, not to some coven leader or elder of whatever order. It's MY path, I need to walk it. It's my feet that hold me up. Other's can't always be depended on to make proper decisions and choices for me - to suit my feelings and beliefs.
That's probably the biggest difference between traditionalists and eclectics. And they're after the SAME THING.
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| middleground |
Posted - December 15 2006 : 10:30:16 PM
I never said anything about freedom or death. Please do not put words down that I did not give impression of, nor actually type. I think it's best if we agree to disagree at this point. Seeing as how we are only polarizing the issue as it is.
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| Vainamoinen |
Posted - December 15 2006 : 02:48:00 AM
I would rather be myself and useless than 'functional and useful' and forced into a mold I don't fit. I don't want to be part of anyone's grand design. I just want to be myself. Freedom or death. No...well, no middle ground, to be frankly honest. I don't want to be anyone's lump of clay.
I don't think we as a species are going to make it unless we can all act as individuals and take complete responsibility for our actions. I think that makes me an anarchist. Oh well.
...dabbling all the way down... |
| middleground |
Posted - December 15 2006 : 12:07:05 AM
I still think the guiding hand of a teacher is necessary. I'm sorry, that's just how I was brought up in the faith. Learning is Fundamental, and Teaching is Sacred. To guide and mold the clay, to give it form and function. Not to let the clay decide what it wants to be on it's own, for there is no purpose, no grand design in that. We must take the initiative, the responsibility of molding the clay, otherwise all we will be left with will be lumps. Individual? Yes. But functional and useful? No.
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| Vainamoinen |
Posted - December 14 2006 : 12:32:33 AM
Thank you, Chain. You put your finger on it.
Someone once said: "Some things can't be taught. They must be learned." And that's true. Suppose you've lived your life underground: I can tell you the sky is blue, and you can believe me, but for you the reality of the sky BEING blue may not sink in until you see it yourself. Yes, knowing about the blue sky beforehand may prepare you for it, but if you didn't know, and went aboveground on your own, and found it, is that really so bad?
What I'm saying is, each person is as different as the stars in the sky. For one person, teaching may be the best and most useful thing. For others, a teacher may be neutral, or even damaging to their development. Nobody knows how we learn, or what makes us take interest in something, or understand it, or comprehend it. Given that vast unknown, it seems that teaching (or leaving alone) has to be tailored to the individual.
We're strange creatures, we are.
...dabbling all the way down... |
| ChainLightning |
Posted - December 13 2006 : 9:14:34 PM
I kind of disagree with you, there MG. I think it's the learning that's important, not the teaching.
And about *however works best for you*? You and I, and probably Vain, too, all practice our faith differently. And as such we use magic(k) differently, too. I can't say that yours is incorrect, because it's different than mine. It's just different. Just like I can't say, *if you spell magic with a K you're fluff bunny.* It's simply not true. In terms of the believers, the practitioners, themselves, it really is *to each their own* or *however works best for you*.
I'll give you a *for instance*. To celebrate one of the more common *holidays*, the upcoming solstice, some people go all out on their rituals; singing, dancing, chanting, lots of ritual garb. Others may go just so far as to light a candle and still others pass the day without so much as a moment's silence, no notice at all. Which ritual is correct?
Certainly the answer can't be judged by which ones use a K. Nor can they be deemed incorrect because of how different they are from my (or your) own.
I rather think that's the idea Vain had in mind when he posted *whatever works for you*. Not the lack of education/learning but the separation of paths.
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| middleground |
Posted - December 13 2006 : 12:29:20 PM
But by saying "y'know. however works best for you", you're only allowing that person to do it incorrectly. Mess up, or generally screw up in a big and bad way. We don't hand people guns and say "hey. however works best for you" because we know someone will just be stupid enough to shoot themselves with it. That's why teaching is important. It's teaching that gives direction and helps them upon a path. But to say that an uneducated mind who just sort of stumbles through it all is just as equal as an educated mind is absurd.
Just my thoughts on it.
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| Vainamoinen |
Posted - December 12 2006 : 3:33:14 PM
I think magic is different for every single person who encounters it. Some people may benefit greatly from having a teacher, others may work better on a solitary path. What I don't think, however, is that you should say "This is the way it should be done." What works for you may not work for others.
But that's just me. And I like intruding on conversations.
...dabbling all the way down... |
| middleground |
Posted - December 12 2006 : 10:03:42 AM
Precisely Chain.  Magick is something to be learned, something to be taught by an actual teacher. Not just reading in a book, and then going off on one's own and attempting it.
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